Kabul River
Pakistan and Afghanistan share Kabul sub-basin as a part of Indus basin.
Map shows the complete picture of Kabul basin. Its north east part gets the most water from Pakistan's Chitral region. Average annual flow from Chitral is 7.59 MAF
south west branches from Afghanistan's Logar and Wardak provinces contribute very little water, but Panjsher and Ghorband rivers in kabul's north have beter snow and ice resources.
Average annual flow of river just before it re-enters Pakistan from Nangarhar, is 15.683 MAF
Pakistan and Afghanistan share Kabul sub-basin as a part of Indus basin.
Map shows the complete picture of Kabul basin. Its north east part gets the most water from Pakistan's Chitral region. Average annual flow from Chitral is 7.59 MAF
south west branches from Afghanistan's Logar and Wardak provinces contribute very little water, but Panjsher and Ghorband rivers in kabul's north have beter snow and ice resources.
Average annual flow of river just before it re-enters Pakistan from Nangarhar, is 15.683 MAF
Inam Bhai Did You Know That After Independence Attock Was Surveyed and It Was Found To Be A Natural Location for A Dam.It Could Store A Mega 30 MAF.But Was Immediately Rejected Since It Was Found Out That It Would Submerge The Entire Peshawar Valley.This Was 60 Years Ago.Has Dam Technology Advanced To The Extent That Such A Project Could Become Feasible.We Could Build Such A Mega Dam Without Submerging A Large Area.
ReplyDeleteCan We Get The Best Of Both Worlds???????
yes, Soan Dam with 38 MAF storage is a bigger and better design.
Deletehttp://inamre.blogspot.ca/2013/04/soan-dam-project-overview.html
Inam Bhai I Think You Did Not Understand My Question After Independence the first area that was surveyed was Attock With It's Narrow Gorges.It Was Found Out That A Large Concrete Dam Capable Of Storing 20 MAF (30 MAF According to World Bank) Can Be Built.But It Was Soon Found Out That This Would Submerge The Entire Peshawar Valley.This Was The 1940s.
DeleteMy Question Was That Can We Build This Mega Dam in Attock Today Without Flooding Such A Massive Area.Has Civil Engineering Advanced To Such An Extent??????
Here Is A Paper Of Pakistan Engineering Council About The Background Conception and Construction of Tarbela Dam
Deletehttp://pecongress.org.pk/images/upload/books/P116.pdf
I Request You Read The First Few Lines Of The Last Paragraph of Page 4 of This Report You Will Understand My Question
I know about this idea. I am sorry that my last answer was too short and I didn't explain the situation of Attock site.
DeleteAttock Dam's inundation area doesn't change without change in its capacity, because stored water needs physical space on land and no technological advancement can address this issue. underground storage through suitable aquifer recharge works at smaller scale, but this won't work for Attock dam's size and location. in fact, any smallest damming structure at attock will put Peshawar valley in danger of flooding. during extreme floods, Indus at Attock rises by 100+ feet. Any Dam between Kalabagh and Tarbela will make things dangerous
Technological advancements have helped building efficient diversion canals, longer tunnels and higher dams. using them, Soan project offers a good option to tame Indus and Kabul floods at Attock and collect upto 40 MAF water in a side valley with a Dam smaller than Tarbela.
The PEC Report States That It's Capacity Would Be 20 MAF But The World Bank Report On It Is 30 MAF.suppose We Halve The Storage Capacity TO 10 or 15 MAF Would It Become Viable Then
DeleteInam Sahib Can You Describe In Detail About The Darra e Tang Dam Which According to Your Flood Control Strategy Will Store 210 MAF But Is Based On Seasonal Shift and Precipitation.I Asked This Question In Your Last Post 'Common Water Wisdom' But Could Not Get An Answer
ReplyDelete@smlee, Darra e Tang is on Kurram River, before it meets Indus. I mentioned it in context of a climate change study that feared shifting of rain pattern in Pakistan, but it has not happened yet
ReplyDelete@Anonymous, dead storage of a dam causes much obstruction and slope loss for river bed. even a 1 MAF dam at Attock won't be acceptable for KPK folks, and I don't blame them for it.
Inam Sahib You Are Correct In Stating That Underground Storage Through Aquifier Recharge Is Done On A Small Scale However Now Australians Are Considering To Do It On A Larger Scale
Deletehttp://www.ecosmagazine.com/?paper=EC12282
Putting Aside The Potential Attock Mega Dam On One Side, Is The Idea Of Building A Mega Dam Then Diverting Waters To Potential Underground Aquifiers Feasible in Pakistan.This Has Been Successful In The USA
https://www.srpnet.com/default.aspx
We Had One of The Largest Underground Aquifiers In The World Which Has Been Considerably Depleted(I Read It Was Once More Than 300 MAF).Surley This Provides Enough Capacity.Presence of Underground Aquifiers Can Also Allow For Greater Pumped Storage Power Generation
What Are Your Thoughts On This??????
underground storage needs spongy rockbed, which is not available everywhere.
DeleteAustralian rivers have very little water compared to Pakistan, so their "large scale" cannot be compared to ours.
our floodplains can be studied for underground storage in South Punjab, while considering mixing of brakish water and optimum water table to avoid waterlogging and salinity.
Punjab's underground varies by season, it gets replenished by rivers and rains. It should be used carefully as it is not perfect for irrigation.
So Large Dams Like Soan Along With Diversion Canals To Transfer Water To Underground Water Table Is Pretty Much Possible Like The Salt River Project????????
DeleteIt is a good option, but needs detailed study to identify optimal sites for underground storage without harming the water and land quality. It will minimize evaporation losses but needs additional energy to pump the water back for irrigation. Solar powered tube wells can become useful.
DeleteWhat Are Your Views On The Proposals Of Former IRSA Chairman Eng. Fatehullah Khan Gandapur In Lieu Of Kalabagh
ReplyDelete1.Katzarah Dam
http://fatehuk.blogspot.com/2010/08/unique-katzarah-dam-on-indus.html
2.Guroh Dop Dam On Panjkura River
http://fatehuk.blogspot.com/2010/08/guroh-dop-dam-on-panjkora-river.html
3.Raised Fateh Barrage
http://fatehuk.blogspot.com/2011/11/unique-substitute-for-kalabagh-dam.html
4.Attock Barrage Dam
http://www.dawn.com/news/644888/water-expert-proposes-barrage-dam-near-attock
5.All Pakistan Grand Canal
http://fatehuk.blogspot.com/2010/08/all-pakistan-grand-canal-from-chashma.html
(How Does This Compare With The Grand Indus Canal You Have Proposed The Water Motorway of Pakistan?)
Secondly The Basic Idea Of Soan Dam Is A Side Valley Storage on Soan Tributary By Extending Tarbela Dam.Can A Similar Extension Be Done With Katzarah Dam Making A Storage On The Shyok River
There is no place named Katzara. it is actually Kachura, but got mistyped in an old USGS map. It is near Skardu and has a big storage capacity. Gandapur sb used to quote 15000 MW hydel capacity for it, but that is wrong. site can store 30 to 100 MAF(even more) but can produce only 1500 MW electricity.
DeleteGuroh Dop Dam is a big storage site, but there is not enough water at that location. although some water from Chitral river can be diverted via tunnels to store in it.
Raised Fateh Barrage and Attock dam both don't offer significant storage or hydel capacity, but they are dangerous for KPK.
All Pakistan Canal of gandapur sb is based upon Kalabagh dam. With help of Soan dam, a canal like Grand Indus Canal will be 80 meters higher and can command five times more area. it can reach as far south as we want.
There is a proposal of Yugo dam near khaplu for a 4-5 MAF storage, but it won't be an off channel one. Because Shyok river's storage site is much higher than Skardu valley, and its own water is enough for available storage.
So Can The All Pakistan Grand Canal and Your Grand Indus Canal Co Exist and Work in Tandem ???????
DeleteSeconly Correct Me If I Am Wrong Conventional Hydropower Depends Upon The Potential Energy of Water.It Is Only Logical That Such A Massive Quantity Of Water Falling From What Is Virtually The Highest Point In The Country Would Generate Tremendous Hydropower.Why Is It That Katzarah Dam Would Generate Only 1500 MW While Dams At Much Lower Level Bhasha Bunji Tarbela Kalabagh Would Generate Much More???? (Bear In Mind WAPDA Has Not Questioned The 15000 MW Figure But It Has Objected to The 35 MAF Figure.To The Kachura Is Worth 27 MAF)
I Have Great Respect For Gandapur Sahib Unlike The So Called Nationalists of KPK and Sindh He Did Not Give That Old and Worn Arguement That 'Nowshera Will Drown and Sindh Will Become Dessert'
But He Gave Forceful Technical Arguements As To Why KBD Is Not The Ideal Solution AND what The Best Alternatives Are In His View.The Figures He Presents Are Open To Debate Because Proper Feasibilities Have Not Been Conducted On Any Of His Proposals
(BTW If You Read His Piece On Akori Sanjwal Dam He Was Quite Critical Of Off Channel StoragesIf He Was Alive Today I Wonder What He Would Have To Say About Soan Dam LOL)
Both can coexist, but GIC can do the job alone.
Deletehydroelectric potential of a site doesn't depend upon absolute elevation of the dam. it is a function of relative drop between upstream and downstream elevations of a dam.
In mountains, narrow valleys are much steeper than wide ones, so they offer better head for hydel power.
in contrast, wider valleys offer more storage but mild slope, hence less hydel head.
Aother big factor is amount of water flowing. River network is always tree shaped and upstream branches get less flow. Skardu site is beyond the confluence of Gilgit river and many others on right and left. annual flow at Skardu site is about half of Tarbela. Gandapur sahib knew about the extra zero typo but he is not among us to fix it now.
storage and hydel calculations don't need special studies. At least I can do the math for any site you like within 2-3 days.
Gandapur Sahib opposed Akhori-Sanjwal because of its construction volume and weak bed rock. Soan dam wall is 1/3rd of its size, but offers six times more storage, which makes it much better choice.
So What You Are Saying Is It Was Gandaour's Sahibs and Pietr Lieftnck's(World Bank1968) Intellectual Dishonesty That An Extra Zero Was Added(What About IRSA and ANG Abbasi Commission Which Seconded His Findings)
DeleteSecondly He Says Apart From Kachura,He Identified 12 Other Mega Dam Sites Do You Have Any Idea Where Those Sites Were(I Assumed They Were In The 1968 World Bank Report But Could Not Find A Detailed Copy)
If He Is No More In This World(May Alah Grant Him Heaven) Who Is Running His Blog
Gandapur Sahib died in dec 2012 , may Allah bless him. November 28, 2012's update was the last one.
DeleteI have World Bank reports, they don't have 1500 or 15000 MW figure.
report has a list of 100+ dam sites, but I am not sure which all were identified by him.
He Specifically Uses The Word Mega Dams,Do You Have Any Idea What Those 12 Particuar Sites Were.Can You Upload That Report Or Parts Of It For Knowledge Sakes.If It Is At Least Provide A Link
DeleteAnd I Repeat My Question That What You Are Saying Is It Was Gandaour's Sahibs Intellectual Dishonesty That An Extra Zero Was Added????
WRT hydel capacity, there are 10+ mega dam sites on Indus river. they are the same ones PTI mentioned as cascading mega dams in their power vision. you can find them in this file https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3x1Nmk1zl5taTNjUnRveVE4b1k/edit?usp=sharing
DeleteWB published two sets of reports about Pakistan. I have uploaded both of them for you here.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3x1Nmk1zl5tY1J6MUdnRGZYYzQ&usp=sharing
Page 292-296 of this document has the list of identified sites. WorldBank_Water_and_Power_Resources_of_West_Pakistan_V1of3.pdf
Yes, it can be called intellectual dishonesty on his part, but nobody had time to verify it either.
Are The Potential Dam Sites Of Kiara and Kirpalian Still Viable Dam Sites Or Have They Been Submerged By The Tarbela Reservoir Like Darband.Keep In Mind That They Were Two Of The Three Dam Sites Inspected For Tarbela Dam With The Third One Bara Being Selected?????
ReplyDeletemountainous stretch of Indus river offers little storage without building very high dams except Skardu. in the widest location for Diamer Basha, we will need a 900 ft high dam for 6 MAF.
DeleteThat's why upper Indus is best suitable for 8-12 ROR dams with 2 to 6 GW capacity.
Kiara and Kirpalian were superseded by Tarbela, and they are under water now. Pattan, Thakot, Dasu designs cover the length between Tarbela and Diamer Basha.
I Would Like You To Read This
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nihao-salam.com/news-detail.php?id=Njcy
Do You Think Building Dams On Karakoram and Hindukush Mountain Ranges Is Feasible.Although The Idea In The Above Link Is Quite Unconventional,Do You Think The Swiss Attempt To Dam The Alps Can Be Replicated In Pakistan????????
I'v read Naeem's work few years ago, it sounds too futuristic for Pakistan even if feasible. In my opinion, forcefully melting already shrinking glaciers for hydel power may harm. snow-covered peaks play an important role in the balance of climate in Pakistan.
ReplyDeleteHow Big Is The Soan River Exactly Both The Potential Storages(Soan and Dhok Pathan) Have Storage Capacity of 40 MAF and 25 MAF(8.5 MAF According To Wapda with Shortened Height).If Your Figures Are Correct This In Total Becomes 65 MAF.Now Don't Tell Me That A 30 MAF Dam In Attock Can Flood The Entire Peshawar Valley But These Two Dams Will Not Do Anything.You Say That The Soan Dam Will Only Submerge A Small Part Of The Motorway But Something Tells Me It Is Going To Be Much More Than That
ReplyDeleteSoan gorge can hold 45-50 MAF, but we don't need all this storage. IRSA needs about 22 MAF, and add another 6-7 MAF to deal with floods. location and design makes it different from Attock idea. soan reservoir uses the natural gorge, that's why it won't effect many roads.
DeleteAnd Exactly How Much Of An Area Would It Flood???
Delete303820 Acres for 38 MAF and 220448 Acres for 20.5 MAF storage
DeleteCan A River Linkage Project Be Done In Pakistan On The Lines Of China and India By Which We Can Divert Flood Water To The Almost Empty Ravi and Completely Empty Sutlej????
ReplyDeleteRavi and Sutlej are already linked to Jhelum and Chenab via massive canals. Inside Pakistan they get all the water they need.
DeleteWe Know That 4 Sites Were Chosen For KBD Site A,B,C and D Respectively.
ReplyDeleteSite A is 5 Miles Above Kalabagh Town
Site B Is 2.5 Miles Above Site A But 4 Miles Below Site C
Site C Which Was Chosen By WAPDA For KBD Was Just Downstrean Of The Confluence Of The Indus and Soan Rivers
Site D Was Just Above This Confluence and Consisted Of Two Embankments One On Soan and The Other On Indus With A Rock Nose In Between
My Question Is About Site D Is The Embankment On The Soan River Side The Same Soan Dam or Dhok Pathan Dams You Keep Talking About Or Is It A Completely Different Storage on The Soan River
Secondly If Site C Has Become So Politically Controversial Why Not Try To Build A Dam On Any Of The Three Other Surveyed Sites
Lastly Is Katzarah or Kachura A Purely Carry Over Dam Or Can Irrigation Canals BeTaken Out From It
Soan Dam site is 70 km upstream, on Soan river, so it is different from Site D of kalabagh.
ReplyDeleteSite A, B, C and D is about Dam Wall's dimension and design, but has no difference WRT lake volume, level or inundation upstream.
Katzarah is a purely carry over dam. scale and type of agriculture in Baltistan doesn't need Canals. local geography is not suitable for digging canals, and it is not possible to connect a canal from Skardu to downstream of kalabagh
What Is Your Opinion Of Site D Proposal The Idea Of Two Embankments In Parallel on Indus and Soan Rivers Respectively?Would It Complement Soan Dam?Would It Give The Same Advantages Of KBD?Two Large Parallel Embankments With A Rock Nose In Between Should Mean Double The Storage Capacity Of Kalabagh Dam Right?
ReplyDeleteSecondly If Sindh and KPK Is So Opposed To Site C for KBD Why Not Shift It To The Alternative Locations
Thirdly What Is Your Opinion Of Engineer Fatehullah Khan Gandapur Sahibs Assertion That KBD Was Unfeasible Because Of It's Design Based Upon Mid Level Sluicing.Please Do Explain In Detail
two embankments of site D won't be any different from Kalabagh design WRT storage or hydel capacity. Soan gorge has larger capacity, but it can be utilized only if it is isolated from the Indus gorge. switching between Sites of KBD doesn't address KIP and Sindh's objections.
DeleteMid level Sluicing is a bargain for more storage life and power capacity versus upstream flood threat, but it won't impress KPK.
In Rawal TV Program Dastak You Said That ROR Turbines Can Be Set At Kalabagh What Is Your Proposal For The Kalbagh Site A Ghazi Barotha Type ROR.You Have Also Mentioned That Soan Link Upto Jinnah Barrage Can Be Developed For ROR Along The Ghazi Barotha Model Where Else Do You Propose ROR Projects In Your Flood Control Strategy??
ReplyDeleteSoan to Mari Indus can make good ROR project without blocking main stem of Indus. Soan project is mainly for flood control and storage, but adding ROR makes it more attractive.
DeleteROR sites on Upper Indus between Tarbela and Skardu are very efficient for power generation.
What Advantages Is You Mega Flood Control Project Towards Small Dams For Example Can Soan Be Linked To Rawal Khanpur and Simly Dam Similarly Can
ReplyDeleteGrand Indus Canal Be Extended To Thado Dam In Karachi And Wali Tangi Dam In Quetta. What About Makran Canal Can It Be Linked To Shadi Kaur and Akara Kaur Dams In Gwadar Thus Supplying Water
connecting Rawal, Khanpur and Simly with Soan reservoir is not feasible due to their distance and elevation difference. Wali Tangi is very far off and 8000 feet higher. Thado, Hub, Shadi Kaur and Akra Kaur can get unlimited supply if a long canal or Pumped storage is used to collect water in Sindh
DeleteI Would Like You To Read The Following
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-11-226244-The-lake-of-energy
Can You Tell The Name Of Those Three Raw Sites On Chitral River Which Can Produce 44000 MW Cumulatively
Secondly I Would Also Like You To Read This
http://dunyanews.tv/index.php/en/Pakistan/51487-IRSA-discusses-construction-of-barrage-on-Kalabagh
According To This News IRSA Discussed The Possibility Of Kalabagh Barrage Worth 2 Crore Hectare Feet Do You Think It Is A Typo Because 2 Crore or 20 Million Hectare Feet Means A Whopping 50 Million Acre Feet
44000 is wrong figure. there are 2-3 designs for Chitral river around 100 MW each.
ReplyDeleteAlthough diversion of Chitral river before it enters into Afghanistan (Like India did in Kishanganga) can produce 1500+ MW of extra energy in Pakistan.
44000 MW figure is true for Indus river, but it needs about 10 projects not just 3.
second news is from 2011. it has wrong information too. A lower dam or barrage can hold 2 MAF. most likely news reporter had a problem converting millions into crores and he thought that Acre is a desi unit which should be called Hectare in English :-)
I won't be amazed even if IRSA folks provided these figures, cuz very few people understand the involved simple math
In Your Flood Control Strategy You Mention The Possibility of Several Dam Locations From Markhal to Dhok Pathan Dam Care To Mention Them In Detail
ReplyDeleteSecondly When You Say ThatSoan Dam Can Store 40 MAF,Is It The Capacity Of Soan Dam Alone Or The Cumulative Capacity of Soan Plus Tarbela
Is Makhad D/s Of Dhok Pathan and Soan What Are It's Potential For Pumped Storage Hydro Power?Can Dhok Patahn Be Used Alongwith Soan For Pumped Storage??????
Several sites between dhok pathan and Markhal are about selecting the dam axis for single reservoir. Dhok pathan can afford a higher wall and Markhal can make a longer lake with lower wall, but total capacity remains same around 38-40 MAF.
DeleteSoan's capacity excludes Tarbela's 6.8 MAF. We may not need to make a full 38 MAF storage here, as system need is about 21 MAF. some extra storage can help, but will be finalized in detailed study.
Pumped storage net energy balance is negative. it consumes more energy to lift water than it produces, due to system losses. transferring water through regulator canal will produce the energy without wastage.
Inam Sb. Kindly discuss kabul river problem between Pakistan and Afghanistan and its prspective/possible solutions.
ReplyDeleteWhen Is PFCS 3.0 Coming Up?
ReplyDelete